Comments on: Another 28th July http://kadnan.com/blog/2007/07/29/another-28th-july/ Self discovering Thu, 04 Dec 2008 21:10:04 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.1.1 By: twomanyface http://kadnan.com/blog/2007/07/29/another-28th-july/#comment-1620 twomanyface Mon, 30 Jul 2007 18:20:51 +0000 http://kadnan.com/blog/2007/07/29/another-28th-july/#comment-1620 I knew it!! You are a Tableghi after all. All I can say from my experience is that, been there done that. And may Allah guide you, rather than the Tablighi jamaat. I would advise, you should go and get involved more, but keep an open mind, and in time you will see the contradictions. What I mean by an open mind, is that when the preaching starts to get to you, and that you start to hate other people for what they believe in, then you should be ready to challenge your own thoughts. And always remember, Allah or Islam does not promote ethnocentrism. There are more hadith and versus from the Quran, that teach you humility and tolerance. After that I am sure time will teach you the rest, and time is the best teacher of them all. I knew it!! You are a Tableghi after all. All I can say from my experience is that, been there done that. And may Allah guide you, rather than the Tablighi jamaat.
I would advise, you should go and get involved more, but keep an open mind, and in time you will see the contradictions. What I mean by an open mind, is that when the preaching starts to get to you, and that you start to hate other people for what they believe in, then you should be ready to challenge your own thoughts.
And always remember, Allah or Islam does not promote ethnocentrism. There are more hadith and versus from the Quran, that teach you humility and tolerance. After that I am sure time will teach you the rest, and time is the best teacher of them all.

]]> By: admin http://kadnan.com/blog/2007/07/29/another-28th-july/#comment-1623 admin Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:00:00 +0000 http://kadnan.com/blog/2007/07/29/another-28th-july/#comment-1623 <i> I knew it!! You are a Tableghi after all </i> Eureka?? NO, I am not a tableeghi but Inshallah I would like to be one like Junaid :-) <i> I would advise, you should go and get involved more, but keep an open mind, and in time you will see the contradictions. What I mean by an open mind </i> Don't judge everyone by using your own standards. Tableeghis are not new for me. My friends since my childhood have been trying to participate but I didn't because I was scared, JUST LIKE YOU! but I think i have grown enough and experienced different people from that group that I could make decision what to do. I told you before, Tableegh is Sunnah of Rasool(saw). Tableegh is order of Allah. Tableegh is not Islamic innovation, it's done by other religion follower as well. that's your perception that it's ethnocentrism. I respectfully disagree with you becaue all you know about it by others, you never experienced it at all. it's like someone talk about Biryani's taste without tasting it which is not sane thing at all. But you never answered me that you believe in hadiths are not? why are you not answering me? :-)
I knew it!! You are a Tableghi after all

Eureka?? NO, I am not a tableeghi but Inshallah I would like to be one like Junaid :-)


I would advise, you should go and get involved more, but keep an open mind, and in time you will see the contradictions. What I mean by an open mind

Don’t judge everyone by using your own standards. Tableeghis are not new for me. My friends since my childhood have been trying to participate but I didn’t because I was scared, JUST LIKE YOU! but I think i have grown enough and experienced different people from that group that I could make decision what to do.

I told you before, Tableegh is Sunnah of Rasool(saw). Tableegh is order of Allah. Tableegh is not Islamic innovation, it’s done by other religion follower as well. that’s your perception that it’s ethnocentrism. I respectfully disagree with you becaue all you know about it by others, you never experienced it at all. it’s like someone talk about Biryani’s taste without tasting it which is not sane thing at all.

But you never answered me that you believe in hadiths are not? why are you not answering me? :-)

]]> By: twomanyface http://kadnan.com/blog/2007/07/29/another-28th-july/#comment-1636 twomanyface Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:11:48 +0000 http://kadnan.com/blog/2007/07/29/another-28th-july/#comment-1636 Well to answer your question about hadith, I do not deny hadith nor the Quran. I hold them very integral to my faith, and my belief structure. I think the knowledge in them I is complete and universal. And I try to live my life according to the best understanding of it that I personally can. It is the usage of the divine teachings by the religious elite that I have a problem with. For their own benefit they use whatever they have to justify their own actions, and the fact that people would follow their misinterpretations without even questioning them. And that is where I differ, I have always questioned everything. The only difference between you and me would be, that I choose to question. I have realized over time that it probably does not help, me at times, and I could do without questioning. But unfortunately, I can’t. Maybe it is a curse at times, but it is what defines ‘me’. I am not questioning the issues, for the sake of questioning. I am questioning whatever fails logic. I also do not believe that my logic is infallible, and therefore I research I ask, and I question. I have been very lucky to have very good teachers over the years, and they have never held back my inquisitions. When I asked one of my teachers about reason for disparity in religious teachings and beliefs across the board in the muslim umah, in response he told me the story about (I am sure you have heard it, if not let me know and I will let you send you the complete story with a more detailed explanation), these people in a village who were waiting to see an elephant for the first time, in a circus that was coming to their village. The circus arrived late at night and the villagers could contain themselves, so they gathered a group of elders to go see the elephant, and tell the villagers what it was like. Unfortunately, there was no light when the elders got there, so they decided to feel the elephant, and could collectively reconstruct it for the people back at the village. Once they returned, they could not agree among themselves to the true form of the elephant, because they had all touched different parts of the animal, and they fought all night describing the animal to the villagers. So when they actually saw the elephant in daylight they realized, that they were all right about the form of the animal from their individual perspective, but were wrong in their collective interpretation of what it was actually like. I am sure this explains how I see religion, and the interpretations around it. There is no one group that is 100% right, and therefore I have an issue with following it blindly, and therefore avoid base my faith on controversial issues. As a litmus test, I would disagree with anyone group that cannot give the other benefit of the doubt. Not necessarily that they are wrong, but on the principal that they do not have the right to claim infallibility. Because the only way they can prove that theirs is the correct interpretation, that they emphasize on other being wrong.. My disagreement is on this principal. Secondly, when they attack, hurt or kill, each other, in the name of faith. The purpose of faith was not so that one can use it to prove superiority over the other, the purpose of faith was to promote understanding, humility, tolerance, compassion and respect for on another. Not so that it can be abused by the few, against the many. When I read surah Bakara’s translation all I see is that Allah asks us to not fall into errors of the past generations, giving examples of Jews and Christians, and all I see is that we do the opposite. We are too focused on one verse and its application into our lives, and we fail to recognize the complete message. I don’t know if you have ever met tablighi’s from another religion. I have, more times that I can count, and their religious conviction and philosophy is exactly the same as the tablighi jamaat. So following on or the other is the same. You would have to experience it to assess. And that is where I realized that, religious conviction is a luxury, that not everyone can afford. Not necessarily for the ones with taqwa. You misunderstood, the usage of the term ‘ethnocentrism’. I was not implying anything, in your own words, its plain English, and you just misunderstood it. The usage was pointing to the tablighi belief, that their creed is superior to all other. And you are right that is not only the belief of the muslim tablighis’ but also all of the other religions too. So what you offer as sunnah (which I am not debating) and an act of honor and vigor, other faiths do it too, and with equal amount of honor and vigor in their practice. So do they do it because it’s a sunnah, I don’t think so. They do it for personal satisfaction, and that is what the muslims tablighi’s do it for too, personal satisfaction. You want to call it taqwa, that is fine by me. But I would call it justifying ones actions, by giving it a glorifying term, the reality of it only Allah knows. But when someone sees it as personal satisfaction, you would realize that these people right their wrongs too, and give it the name of taqwa. So when you start to justify all your actions in that light, then you are only misleading yourself. And that is what I have a problem with, that the kind of faith these tablighis’ (and not just muslims) start to practice and preach, becomes very selfish in charchteristic. They all adamantly claim that theirs’ is the path to salvation, and that translates to personal salvation, and that becomes selfish in practice. I have seen it, that they do emotionally coerce people into attending jamaat or rallies, or whatever. Please tell me that you have seen it happen, and then I would ask you, that does the process make a good deed bad. But we are willing to overlook at that, just because, you say that it is the sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). I have a hard time imagining the most tolerant person (pbuh) we know, coercing people in the name of faith. If the Prophets and Messengers of Allah, were spreading His word, it was under His guidance. I would have a problem with any group claiming to possess divine guidance, and consider that their proof for being infallible. I hope that answers your question. On a separate note, I would add that, I have noticed that you misunderstand or misinterpret the other persons intent or justification, and extract implications that do not exist. And that is not a very positive way to make a point or present a counter point. I have also felt that there is a hint of offense, perhaps in the name of counter defense. I am not sure why you do it. But I will give you benefit of the doubt, and my understanding is, that I am just one person, usually pick on one of your posts and start to give my views, whereas from your perspective, you are trying to replying to others on their comments from several other posts. If that is the case, I would suggest, read this post again, and the answers you seek are all there, without any implication or insinuation, in very plain English. Well to answer your question about hadith, I do not deny hadith nor the Quran. I hold them very integral to my faith, and my belief structure. I think the knowledge in them I is complete and universal. And I try to live my life according to the best understanding of it that I personally can. It is the usage of the divine teachings by the religious elite that I have a problem with. For their own benefit they use whatever they have to justify their own actions, and the fact that people would follow their misinterpretations without even questioning them. And that is where I differ, I have always questioned everything. The only difference between you and me would be, that I choose to question. I have realized over time that it probably does not help, me at times, and I could do without questioning. But unfortunately, I can’t. Maybe it is a curse at times, but it is what defines ‘me’. I am not questioning the issues, for the sake of questioning. I am questioning whatever fails logic. I also do not believe that my logic is infallible, and therefore I research I ask, and I question. I have been very lucky to have very good teachers over the years, and they have never held back my inquisitions.
When I asked one of my teachers about reason for disparity in religious teachings and beliefs across the board in the muslim umah, in response he told me the story about (I am sure you have heard it, if not let me know and I will let you send you the complete story with a more detailed explanation), these people in a village who were waiting to see an elephant for the first time, in a circus that was coming to their village. The circus arrived late at night and the villagers could contain themselves, so they gathered a group of elders to go see the elephant, and tell the villagers what it was like. Unfortunately, there was no light when the elders got there, so they decided to feel the elephant, and could collectively reconstruct it for the people back at the village. Once they returned, they could not agree among themselves to the true form of the elephant, because they had all touched different parts of the animal, and they fought all night describing the animal to the villagers. So when they actually saw the elephant in daylight they realized, that they were all right about the form of the animal from their individual perspective, but were wrong in their collective interpretation of what it was actually like. I am sure this explains how I see religion, and the interpretations around it. There is no one group that is 100% right, and therefore I have an issue with following it blindly, and therefore avoid base my faith on controversial issues.

As a litmus test, I would disagree with anyone group that cannot give the other benefit of the doubt. Not necessarily that they are wrong, but on the principal that they do not have the right to claim infallibility. Because the only way they can prove that theirs is the correct interpretation, that they emphasize on other being wrong.. My disagreement is on this principal. Secondly, when they attack, hurt or kill, each other, in the name of faith. The purpose of faith was not so that one can use it to prove superiority over the other, the purpose of faith was to promote understanding, humility, tolerance, compassion and respect for on another. Not so that it can be abused by the few, against the many.
When I read surah Bakara’s translation all I see is that Allah asks us to not fall into errors of the past generations, giving examples of Jews and Christians, and all I see is that we do the opposite. We are too focused on one verse and its application into our lives, and we fail to recognize the complete message. I don’t know if you have ever met tablighi’s from another religion. I have, more times that I can count, and their religious conviction and philosophy is exactly the same as the tablighi jamaat. So following on or the other is the same. You would have to experience it to assess. And that is where I realized that, religious conviction is a luxury, that not everyone can afford. Not necessarily for the ones with taqwa.
You misunderstood, the usage of the term ‘ethnocentrism’. I was not implying anything, in your own words, its plain English, and you just misunderstood it. The usage was pointing to the tablighi belief, that their creed is superior to all other. And you are right that is not only the belief of the muslim tablighis’ but also all of the other religions too. So what you offer as sunnah (which I am not debating) and an act of honor and vigor, other faiths do it too, and with equal amount of honor and vigor in their practice. So do they do it because it’s a sunnah, I don’t think so. They do it for personal satisfaction, and that is what the muslims tablighi’s do it for too, personal satisfaction. You want to call it taqwa, that is fine by me. But I would call it justifying ones actions, by giving it a glorifying term, the reality of it only Allah knows. But when someone sees it as personal satisfaction, you would realize that these people right their wrongs too, and give it the name of taqwa. So when you start to justify all your actions in that light, then you are only misleading yourself. And that is what I have a problem with, that the kind of faith these tablighis’ (and not just muslims) start to practice and preach, becomes very selfish in charchteristic. They all adamantly claim that theirs’ is the path to salvation, and that translates to personal salvation, and that becomes selfish in practice. I have seen it, that they do emotionally coerce people into attending jamaat or rallies, or whatever. Please tell me that you have seen it happen, and then I would ask you, that does the process make a good deed bad. But we are willing to overlook at that, just because, you say that it is the sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). I have a hard time imagining the most tolerant person (pbuh) we know, coercing people in the name of faith. If the Prophets and Messengers of Allah, were spreading His word, it was under His guidance. I would have a problem with any group claiming to possess divine guidance, and consider that their proof for being infallible. I hope that answers your question.

On a separate note, I would add that, I have noticed that you misunderstand or misinterpret the other persons intent or justification, and extract implications that do not exist. And that is not a very positive way to make a point or present a counter point. I have also felt that there is a hint of offense, perhaps in the name of counter defense. I am not sure why you do it. But I will give you benefit of the doubt, and my understanding is, that I am just one person, usually pick on one of your posts and start to give my views, whereas from your perspective, you are trying to replying to others on their comments from several other posts. If that is the case, I would suggest, read this post again, and the answers you seek are all there, without any implication or insinuation, in very plain English.

]]> By: admin http://kadnan.com/blog/2007/07/29/another-28th-july/#comment-1640 admin Wed, 01 Aug 2007 06:42:49 +0000 http://kadnan.com/blog/2007/07/29/another-28th-july/#comment-1640 <i> The only difference between <b>you and me</b> would be, that I choose to question. I have realized over time that it probably does not help </i> what you said before: <b> I have noticed that you misunderstand or misinterpret the other persons intent or justification, and extract implications that do not exist. And that is not a very positive way to make a point or present a counter point </b> I smell hypocrisy here. Assumptions Assumptions and just assumptions. If you claim that you follow hadiths then such hue and cry for not accepting them? there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between questioning and NOT RESPECTING something. I wish you could make a difference. I read all of your posts. Don't assume that you were not heared. I say again, let's agree to disagree. We are on different wavelength and you would obviously not like to come out of your shell- THanks
The only difference between you and me would be, that I choose to question. I have realized over time that it probably does not help

what you said before:


I have noticed that you misunderstand or misinterpret the other persons intent or justification, and extract implications that do not exist. And that is not a very positive way to make a point or present a counter point

I smell hypocrisy here. Assumptions Assumptions and just assumptions. If you claim that you follow hadiths then such hue and cry for not accepting them? there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between questioning and NOT RESPECTING something. I wish you could make a difference.

I read all of your posts. Don’t assume that you were not heared.

I say again, let’s agree to disagree. We are on different wavelength and you would obviously not like to come out of your shell- THanks

]]> By: twomanyface http://kadnan.com/blog/2007/07/29/another-28th-july/#comment-1643 twomanyface Wed, 01 Aug 2007 16:10:06 +0000 http://kadnan.com/blog/2007/07/29/another-28th-july/#comment-1643 I was as clear as I can be in my post, about hadith and my understanding of it. I guess you would like to know in plain English. Well in plain English, I do not believe that there cannot be any other interpretation of what has already been interpreted. Issue of the times change, and there is room for interpretation. I am of those, who believe that there is enough flexibility in Islam to accommodate, the issues of the time, and the only reason is that it is a Universal religion, and not for a few for a given time. At least there is enough flexibility in my faith that I can go through life without judging people. If you believe that Islam is not flexible enough to accommodate the needs of the times, and saying that hadith and Quran, need to be followed as it is, or it was interpreted in the past, then you really do not understand the Universal appeal of Islam. I was as clear as I can be in my post, about hadith and my understanding of it. I guess you would like to know in plain English. Well in plain English, I do not believe that there cannot be any other interpretation of what has already been interpreted. Issue of the times change, and there is room for interpretation. I am of those, who believe that there is enough flexibility in Islam to accommodate, the issues of the time, and the only reason is that it is a Universal religion, and not for a few for a given time. At least there is enough flexibility in my faith that I can go through life without judging people.
If you believe that Islam is not flexible enough to accommodate the needs of the times, and saying that hadith and Quran, need to be followed as it is, or it was interpreted in the past, then you really do not understand the Universal appeal of Islam.

]]> By: twomanyface http://kadnan.com/blog/2007/07/29/another-28th-july/#comment-1645 twomanyface Wed, 01 Aug 2007 18:27:29 +0000 http://kadnan.com/blog/2007/07/29/another-28th-july/#comment-1645 I came across a couple of other posts on other blogs, and people have tried to explain to you what I have been trying to explain to you. If they have not been able to persuade you, I am sure I cannot either. But it seems like you are quite an authority (not only on this blog, but others too) in passing judgment on imaan of others people. May Allah guide you. This is all I have to say. I came across a couple of other posts on other blogs, and people have tried to explain to you what I have been trying to explain to you. If they have not been able to persuade you, I am sure I cannot either.
But it seems like you are quite an authority (not only on this blog, but others too) in passing judgment on imaan of others people.

May Allah guide you. This is all I have to say.

]]> By: admin http://kadnan.com/blog/2007/07/29/another-28th-july/#comment-1646 admin Wed, 01 Aug 2007 20:18:10 +0000 http://kadnan.com/blog/2007/07/29/another-28th-july/#comment-1646 which blog? I only discussed this issue on ATP(Pakistaniat) only otherwise I don't participate online anymore. Those who you think TRIED to explain me are THOSE who don't even like ISLAM in Pakistan, in short,secularists so don't give me example of those whom I have been experiencing for long time. As I said earlier, LETS AGREE TO DISAGREE- Nobody ask you to agree with me anyway. You are entitled to your opinion and me about mine. Accept it with open heart? Thanks for your participation and keep coming. YOu are alays welcome and 100% free to share your views with others. <i>If you believe that Islam is not flexible enough to accommodate the needs of the times, </i> Only a ghamidi follower would like to twist orignal teachings. By Flexible mean change the ORIGNAL! By flexible doesnt mean We CHANGED the meaning of verses and hadiths! God!! My friend, There is a big gap between you and me. Better you follow your Own path and me mine. :) which blog? I only discussed this issue on ATP(Pakistaniat) only otherwise I don’t participate online anymore. Those who you think TRIED to explain me are THOSE who don’t even like ISLAM in Pakistan, in short,secularists so don’t give me example of those whom I have been experiencing for long time.

As I said earlier, LETS AGREE TO DISAGREE- Nobody ask you to agree with me anyway. You are entitled to your opinion and me about mine. Accept it with open heart? Thanks for your participation and keep coming. YOu are alays welcome and 100% free to share your views with others.

If you believe that Islam is not flexible enough to accommodate the needs of the times,

Only a ghamidi follower would like to twist orignal teachings. By Flexible mean change the ORIGNAL! By flexible doesnt mean We CHANGED the meaning of verses and hadiths! God!!

My friend, There is a big gap between you and me. Better you follow your Own path and me mine. :)

]]> By: admin http://kadnan.com/blog/2007/07/29/another-28th-july/#comment-1647 admin Wed, 01 Aug 2007 20:20:12 +0000 http://kadnan.com/blog/2007/07/29/another-28th-july/#comment-1647 iqbal said something very nice which actually he said about mullahs but today it'e being followed by so called Progressive muslims. <b>Khud ko Badaltay nahi badaltay hain Quraan</b> iqbal said something very nice which actually he said about mullahs but today it’e being followed by so called Progressive muslims.

Khud ko Badaltay nahi badaltay hain Quraan

]]>