Comments on: Hudood Ordinance: Myths and Facts http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/ Self discovering Sat, 22 Nov 2008 12:58:59 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.1.1 By: saima nasir http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-294 saima nasir Sat, 09 Sep 2006 23:02:00 +0000 http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-294 I read the artical by Mufti taqi usmani and I have no doubt about how great this law can be provided we had intentions of implementing it in our country justly.....but the fact is that the law in pakistan is different for different classes.....the elites are involved in all kinds of immoral acts from drinking to robbing to adultery and it is happening openly but huddod has only been applied to the poor. Now thats where this law can be and is misused.....as taqi sahab said that in one case the father filed a report of adultery against his own daughter and we know in our society what it means, yet she was set free....excuse me......this society has karo kari,this society has incest and molestation.....how can we expect the father to be so honourable.....it has nothing to do with secularism but with the implementation of this law that raises eyebrows....when people like altaf, zardari, nawaz, benazir and musharaf who crossed all hudoods set by allah then we know that the implementation of this law will be a mockery.....Jinah by the way was hardly a muslim....if alcohol consumption is a crime then the founder of the nation committed that crime openly....so where does that leave us.....I think first we need to bring a change in the character and composition of our society before bringing laws becuse until society changes and evolves for better no law can provide security or strength to people.......one more thing adnan....you said,"I used the word Illiterate rather uneducated because several degree holders are illiterate due to their mentality and lack of understanding about different matters."......well it should've been ..... people are literate but uneducated means.... they can read but have no knowledge of religious matters....degree holders are literate but unaware....and coming back to the hudood ordinance and secularism.....I am living in Singapore at the moment which claims to be a secular state but i have never felt this safe in my own country....even the domestic workers here can go and lodge a report and expect to get the justice...unlike saudi arabia or many gulf states where we have islamic laws...my point is that not always should we have a conspiracy theory about the west or such debates which challenge the status quo.......we need to understand that without justice in our society huddod ordinance is just another law which will be used by the people to expoit the masses....nobody will ever touch the elites, lords and political terrorists. I read the artical by Mufti taqi usmani and I have no doubt about how great this law can be provided we had intentions of implementing it in our country justly…..but the fact is that the law in pakistan is different for different classes…..the elites are involved in all kinds of immoral acts from drinking to robbing to adultery and it is happening openly but huddod has only been applied to the poor. Now thats where this law can be and is misused…..as taqi sahab said that in one case the father filed a report of adultery against his own daughter and we know in our society what it means, yet she was set free….excuse me……this society has karo kari,this society has incest and molestation…..how can we expect the father to be so honourable…..it has nothing to do with secularism but with the implementation of this law that raises eyebrows….when people like altaf, zardari, nawaz, benazir and musharaf who crossed all hudoods set by allah then we know that the implementation of this law will be a mockery…..Jinah by the way was hardly a muslim….if alcohol consumption is a crime then the founder of the nation committed that crime openly….so where does that leave us…..I think first we need to bring a change in the character and composition of our society before bringing laws becuse until society changes and evolves for better no law can provide security or strength to people…….one more thing adnan….you said,”I used the word Illiterate rather uneducated because several degree holders are illiterate due to their mentality and lack of understanding about different matters.”……well it should’ve been ….. people are literate but uneducated means…. they can read but have no knowledge of religious matters….degree holders are literate but unaware….and coming back to the hudood ordinance and secularism…..I am living in Singapore at the moment which claims to be a secular state but i have never felt this safe in my own country….even the domestic workers here can go and lodge a report and expect to get the justice…unlike saudi arabia or many gulf states where we have islamic laws…my point is that not always should we have a conspiracy theory about the west or such debates which challenge the status quo…….we need to understand that without justice in our society huddod ordinance is just another law which will be used by the people to expoit the masses….nobody will ever touch the elites, lords and political terrorists.

]]> By: beepbeepitsme http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-295 beepbeepitsme Sun, 10 Sep 2006 04:41:00 +0000 http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-295 I see a secular society as one that values reason and free thought.<BR/><BR/>A secular society is one in which people have the right to be religious, or to not be religious.<BR/><BR/>A secular society bases it's laws in reason. A theocracy or religious state bases it's laws in religious beliefs, which may or may not be rational or reasonable.<BR/><BR/>Dominionism, The Other Autocratic Regime<BR/>http://beepbeepitsme.blogspot.com/2006/09/dominionism-other-autocratic-regime.html I see a secular society as one that values reason and free thought.

A secular society is one in which people have the right to be religious, or to not be religious.

A secular society bases it’s laws in reason. A theocracy or religious state bases it’s laws in religious beliefs, which may or may not be rational or reasonable.

Dominionism, The Other Autocratic Regime
http://beepbeepitsme.blogspot.com/2006/09/dominionism-other-autocratic-regime.html

]]> By: Adnan Siddiqi http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-293 Adnan Siddiqi Sun, 10 Sep 2006 11:27:00 +0000 http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-293 @Beep:you are still preaching about secular society?<BR/><BR/><I><BR/>I see a secular society as one that values reason and free thought<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>SHOW ME just ONE secular society on earth!!!<BR/><BR/>I already explained what actually is secularism which is aethism in reality and it has nothing to do with freedom.I personally wil not value your comments more than fathers of secularism which already covered in my post.<BR/><BR/>Secular is fictitious and on paper only like Evolution.Nothing reality.None of them was practically tested @Beep:you are still preaching about secular society?


I see a secular society as one that values reason and free thought

SHOW ME just ONE secular society on earth!!!

I already explained what actually is secularism which is aethism in reality and it has nothing to do with freedom.I personally wil not value your comments more than fathers of secularism which already covered in my post.

Secular is fictitious and on paper only like Evolution.Nothing reality.None of them was practically tested

]]> By: Adnan Siddiqi http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-292 Adnan Siddiqi Sun, 10 Sep 2006 11:31:00 +0000 http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-292 <I><BR/>it has nothing to do with secularism<BR/></I><BR/>Saima:Bibi you are very naive.As i said that these ammendments has NOTHNIG TO DO WITH WOMEN PROTECTION NEITHER ITS THEIR AIM.It was all about creating a fuss and confusion among "jahil" Pakistanis(jahil includes degree holders as well) about Islam nothing else.I wouldnt want to buy theory that they were sincere about women protection ,specially after points raised by Taqi Sahab.<BR/><BR/>Do i share with you that there are rumors that govt or ngos are working on a law to allow alcohol legally in Pakistan by taking support of 'Islam' ?
it has nothing to do with secularism

Saima:Bibi you are very naive.As i said that these ammendments has NOTHNIG TO DO WITH WOMEN PROTECTION NEITHER ITS THEIR AIM.It was all about creating a fuss and confusion among “jahil” Pakistanis(jahil includes degree holders as well) about Islam nothing else.I wouldnt want to buy theory that they were sincere about women protection ,specially after points raised by Taqi Sahab.

Do i share with you that there are rumors that govt or ngos are working on a law to allow alcohol legally in Pakistan by taking support of ‘Islam’ ?

]]> By: saima nasir http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-291 saima nasir Sun, 10 Sep 2006 16:17:00 +0000 http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-291 When did i say that the ngos or the Govt. is sincere about the protection of women, niether did i say that women are protected well in secular states....my point was that... to protect women we need to change the fabric of our society....it needs to be educated so that we have society which respects each other's life and property and this cannot be done by any law.....religious parties and teachers need to educate people instead of fighting a war of words when they have failed the very people so many times in the past.......i said earlier in my post that women are protected quite well in the secular states not because of the lack of religion but because of the presence of accountability and social justice.......and Adnan govt. doesn't have to have a law for the alcohol......as it is easily available to the rich and well placed...this law is for the masses and they don't care about the masses.....if we want to protect our women in pakistan we need to educate our men in pakistan about their responsibilies towards their women.......otherwise no law can guarantee protection...... When did i say that the ngos or the Govt. is sincere about the protection of women, niether did i say that women are protected well in secular states….my point was that… to protect women we need to change the fabric of our society….it needs to be educated so that we have society which respects each other’s life and property and this cannot be done by any law…..religious parties and teachers need to educate people instead of fighting a war of words when they have failed the very people so many times in the past…….i said earlier in my post that women are protected quite well in the secular states not because of the lack of religion but because of the presence of accountability and social justice…….and Adnan govt. doesn’t have to have a law for the alcohol……as it is easily available to the rich and well placed…this law is for the masses and they don’t care about the masses…..if we want to protect our women in pakistan we need to educate our men in pakistan about their responsibilies towards their women…….otherwise no law can guarantee protection……

]]> By: Adnan Siddiqi http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-290 Adnan Siddiqi Sun, 10 Sep 2006 21:20:00 +0000 http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-290 Saima,bibi you are being so vocal that you are keep ignoring what i mentioned in my post.You said:<BR/><BR/><I><BR/>, niether did i say that women are protected well in secular states<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>Which friggin SECULAR state?Show me one Secular State on earth.USA?India.I can refute you easilt for these states,name others,European countries?Pretty influenced of Catholism over there.China,Russia etc?Communism rocks!!<BR/><BR/>What is left?Africa ,Asia?which state are you talking about.I clearly said:<BR/><BR/><B>There is No Secular State on Earth and I dont belive in your definition of secularism which is a LIE.You ignore the fact and history of secularism.Search the name of people I mentioned in my post like Holyoake and his defitnion.it had nothing to do with FREEDOM and it was all about supporting Aethism<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>Please read ,read and read before you just make a post.<BR/><BR/><BR/><I><BR/><BR/>.and Adnan govt. doesn't have to have a law for the alcohol......as it is easily available to the rich and well placed<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>You clearly lack something.According to you if something is Easily available then law is not required.Lady can you make a difference between something available legally and in access vs Illegally and in lesser quantity.<BR/><BR/><BR/>What what..I just read your first ever comment on this thread.You said:<BR/><BR/><I><BR/>Jinah by the way was hardly a muslim....<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>WTF are you talking about.What is the proof?Dont tell me he was a secularist.Comeup with proof<BR/><BR/><I><BR/>if alcohol consumption is a crime then the founder of the nation committed that crime openly<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>ARe you Ok?What are you trying to say that Jinnah was alcholic?comeup with proof Saima,bibi you are being so vocal that you are keep ignoring what i mentioned in my post.You said:


, niether did i say that women are protected well in secular states

Which friggin SECULAR state?Show me one Secular State on earth.USA?India.I can refute you easilt for these states,name others,European countries?Pretty influenced of Catholism over there.China,Russia etc?Communism rocks!!

What is left?Africa ,Asia?which state are you talking about.I clearly said:

There is No Secular State on Earth and I dont belive in your definition of secularism which is a LIE.You ignore the fact and history of secularism.Search the name of people I mentioned in my post like Holyoake and his defitnion.it had nothing to do with FREEDOM and it was all about supporting Aethism

Please read ,read and read before you just make a post.

.and Adnan govt. doesn’t have to have a law for the alcohol……as it is easily available to the rich and well placed

You clearly lack something.According to you if something is Easily available then law is not required.Lady can you make a difference between something available legally and in access vs Illegally and in lesser quantity.

What what..I just read your first ever comment on this thread.You said:


Jinah by the way was hardly a muslim….

WTF are you talking about.What is the proof?Dont tell me he was a secularist.Comeup with proof


if alcohol consumption is a crime then the founder of the nation committed that crime openly

ARe you Ok?What are you trying to say that Jinnah was alcholic?comeup with proof

]]> By: Adnan Siddiqi http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-289 Adnan Siddiqi Sun, 10 Sep 2006 21:24:00 +0000 http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-289 And Saima remember one thing before you answer me.For me a secularist is an actually an aethist.Thts what the foundation of secularism too and Secularism has no association with religion that is a person could be either a religion follower or an aethist/secular.There is no such thing in reality like Muslim Secularists,Christian secularists etc.<BR/><BR/><BR/>I really feel pitty for our so called *educated* class.<BR/><BR/><BR/>P.S:are you a secularists?If yes then you clearly know my views about them.So do prepare yourself before you throw any reply And Saima remember one thing before you answer me.For me a secularist is an actually an aethist.Thts what the foundation of secularism too and Secularism has no association with religion that is a person could be either a religion follower or an aethist/secular.There is no such thing in reality like Muslim Secularists,Christian secularists etc.

I really feel pitty for our so called *educated* class.

P.S:are you a secularists?If yes then you clearly know my views about them.So do prepare yourself before you throw any reply

]]> By: Adnan Siddiqi http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-288 Adnan Siddiqi Sun, 10 Sep 2006 21:40:00 +0000 http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-288 Maybe you are also a victom of pathetic media tactics like <A HREF="http://www.storyofpakistan.com/discforum/topic.asp?topicid=319&forumid=5&page=1&display=yes&id=7521" REL="nofollow"> this </A><BR/><BR/>Maybe you also believe in theory of goerge?<BR/><BR/>I really loathe such people who just blindly get agreed to say any crap against anyone.<BR/><BR/>I expect you to comeup with proof against Jinnah and other things I asked. Maybe you are also a victom of pathetic media tactics like this

Maybe you also believe in theory of goerge?

I really loathe such people who just blindly get agreed to say any crap against anyone.

I expect you to comeup with proof against Jinnah and other things I asked.

]]> By: ali http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-287 ali Mon, 11 Sep 2006 06:26:00 +0000 http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-287 The shariah is enforced to various definitions in many islamic countries. Saudia, iran, pakistan, talibanistan to remind you of the most notorious. It continues to fail the defenceless everywhere. Man made laws in the west might not be perfect but hey trump shariah in every case when it comes to protecting people and safeguarding everyones rights. The shariah is enforced to various definitions in many islamic countries. Saudia, iran, pakistan, talibanistan to remind you of the most notorious. It continues to fail the defenceless everywhere. Man made laws in the west might not be perfect but hey trump shariah in every case when it comes to protecting people and safeguarding everyones rights.

]]> By: Adnan Siddiqi http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-286 Adnan Siddiqi Mon, 11 Sep 2006 08:52:00 +0000 http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-286 I dont know what do you mean by shariah but if shariah means chopping hands,banning ladies driving in saudia,banning ladies education by taliban(I supported it due to genuine reason at that time in the region) then my friend you are wrong.Shariah is not name of few factors and if you really want to know about shariah then read biographies of 1st four caliphs ,bio of Umar bin Abdul Aziz(RA) and few more then you would learn what actually is Shariah.<BR/><BR/>You guys believe in Islam presented by West.The west which consider Jihad means Holywar and Fatwa means "Death orders" and its pretty absurd.More lame that our own people believe in it.These people always tried to prove themself "educated". I dont know what do you mean by shariah but if shariah means chopping hands,banning ladies driving in saudia,banning ladies education by taliban(I supported it due to genuine reason at that time in the region) then my friend you are wrong.Shariah is not name of few factors and if you really want to know about shariah then read biographies of 1st four caliphs ,bio of Umar bin Abdul Aziz(RA) and few more then you would learn what actually is Shariah.

You guys believe in Islam presented by West.The west which consider Jihad means Holywar and Fatwa means “Death orders” and its pretty absurd.More lame that our own people believe in it.These people always tried to prove themself “educated”.

]]> By: saima nasir http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-285 saima nasir Tue, 12 Sep 2006 16:16:00 +0000 http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-285 i had left a detailed answer here but seems you never got my reply....so i have left a short answer with the jinah post i had left a detailed answer here but seems you never got my reply….so i have left a short answer with the jinah post

]]> By: saima nasir http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-284 saima nasir Wed, 13 Sep 2006 05:46:00 +0000 http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-284 Sir <BR/>you need to understand the difference between secular govts. and secular people....the word secular is used more for the govts. because they have to run a country with many religions and thus the need for impartiality arise.....but no one ever claimed that the personal biases are absent in secular govts. It is just easier to hold them accountable if one group is aggrieved..... Sir
you need to understand the difference between secular govts. and secular people….the word secular is used more for the govts. because they have to run a country with many religions and thus the need for impartiality arise…..but no one ever claimed that the personal biases are absent in secular govts. It is just easier to hold them accountable if one group is aggrieved…..

]]> By: Adnan Siddiqi http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-283 Adnan Siddiqi Wed, 13 Sep 2006 09:20:00 +0000 http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-283 <I><BR/>you need to understand the difference between secular govts. and secular people.<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>Every govt is run by people what do you try to tell me?A govt would be secular or religious only if their main administrators believ in concept.You cant expect an aethist to follow shariah neither u can except a religon follower to obey aethism.<BR/><BR/><I><BR/>because they have to run a country with many religions and thus the need for impartiality arise<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>Do you put Islam in line of Christianity and Judaism?Do you know why the concept of church and state was brought up.I have given a detailed answer here:<BR/><BR/>http://pakistaniat.com/2006/09/10/pakistan-hudood-ordinance-women-rights-islam/<BR/><BR/>and not willing to repeat that why sepration of church and state was necessary at that time.Read my last 4 replies,which stats after umera's post.if you face difficulty,let me know.<BR/><BR/><BR/><I><BR/>but no one ever claimed that the personal biases are absent in secular govts. It is just easier to hold them accountable if one group is aggrieved<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>Just on papers not in reality
you need to understand the difference between secular govts. and secular people.

Every govt is run by people what do you try to tell me?A govt would be secular or religious only if their main administrators believ in concept.You cant expect an aethist to follow shariah neither u can except a religon follower to obey aethism.


because they have to run a country with many religions and thus the need for impartiality arise

Do you put Islam in line of Christianity and Judaism?Do you know why the concept of church and state was brought up.I have given a detailed answer here:

http://pakistaniat.com/2006/09/10/pakistan-hudood-ordinance-women-rights-islam/

and not willing to repeat that why sepration of church and state was necessary at that time.Read my last 4 replies,which stats after umera’s post.if you face difficulty,let me know.


but no one ever claimed that the personal biases are absent in secular govts. It is just easier to hold them accountable if one group is aggrieved

Just on papers not in reality

]]> By: Adnan`s Crazy Blogging World » Blog Archive » “Where is my Protection bill?”-these women ask http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-2522 Adnan`s Crazy Blogging World » Blog Archive » “Where is my Protection bill?”-these women ask Sun, 28 Oct 2007 16:34:15 +0000 http://kadnan.com/blog/2006/09/08/hudood-ordinance-myths-and-facts/#comment-2522 [...] issues have been sorted out by their messiah Mr.Musharraf who helped him to getrid of cruel Hudood Ordinance [...] […] issues have been sorted out by their messiah Mr.Musharraf who helped him to getrid of cruel Hudood Ordinance […]

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